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Oct. 6, 2026

US Department of Justice Still Trying to Prosecute Tornado Cash Co-Founder

US Department of Justice Still Trying to Prosecute Tornado Cash Co-Founder
US Department of Justice Still Trying to Prosecute Tornado Cash Co-Founder
Crypto Talk Radio: Basic Cryptonomics
US Department of Justice Still Trying to Prosecute Tornado Cash Co-Founder

US Department of Justice Still Trying to Prosecute Tornado Cash Co-Founder

#Crypto #Cryptocurrency #podcast #BasicCryptonomics

Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://CryptoTalk.FM

Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@ThisIsCTR⁠⁠⁠⁠

00:01 - Intro and Market Check

01:08 - Bitcoin Price and the Four-Year Cycle Theory

02:38 - Zelda Remake and 'Pick a Side' Mentality

04:08 - Influencers, Accountability, and Crypto Culture

06:02 - Crypto Privacy vs Government Surveillance

07:00 - IRS Inefficiency and Personal Tax Story

12:49 - Tornado Cash and the Code-Is-Not-a-Crime Debate

13:57 - Peer-to-Peer History and Music Industry Parallel

17:33 - Guilty Until Proven Innocent in Practice

21:07 - Cash vs Digital Surveillance

22:28 - Influencer Hype, Pump and Dumps, and Final Advice

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Welcome to Crypto Talk Radio, the podcast for everyday investors like you. Visit us on the web@CryptoTalkRadio.net and now here's your host, Leister.

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Thank you for that, Bailey. And welcome everybody out there in Crypto Talk radio found@cryptotalkradio.net. hello and welcome back to the show CryptoTalk FM. My name is Leister again, I'm your host and I don't have a lot of topics that might, that might annoy some people. But think of it this way. If I had a lot of topics, there's a lot going on and when there's a lot going on, it's usually not good news, right? There's rarely, rarely significant amounts of good news. I'm sure you've noticed that if there's significant news, it's usually bad news. You might have heard other YouTubers and they're talking about various things and some of them are shilling other projects. I will. That would be one of my topics actually. Brief mention but I want to talk treat this a 101. We'll say it's a 101 episode. There's a couple educational points I want to make sure I cover in today's episode I think are important.

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Coinmarketcap.com we'll zoom out to the month chart. Start with bitcoin currently hovering just shy of the $86,000 mark. And if it sounds like Groundhog Day, don't feel bad. This is actually very close to what we had before because things did not significantly move. I did see a Fair amount of YouTubers telling you that we were about to go and hit another bull run and go to the six figures again. That of course did not happen. My predictions had been 88,000 and we're not at 88,000. I think we got close to it but we didn't hit it. But I was, I'm really short term with it. I don't see this major run that everybody else. It. Everybody talks about the four year cycle. I'm sure you heard that. I'm sure you heard people tell you it's a cyclical thing. Every four years we have this amazing pump.

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Consider what if it's just what if. Consider what if that was an aberration? Look it up. What if that was an outlier? Look it up. What if that was a one time deal? What if that was not common? What if that was not really a pattern? What if the four years is the flaw? What if it's that it will just. It's every Six years now. Or what if that we just got lucky or unlucky, depending how you look at it. With poof hair, Sam Bankman, Fried and ftx. The Genesis and all the other failures, abject failures, CZ getting locked up. What if it's just a perfect storm of chaos that happened at the right time to cause the right set of situations that cannot be replicated without another of those major catalysts? Is that possible? I think it's possible. I think it's strongly probable. Look that up.

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I'm not saying yer nay. I actually saw somebody on a post. This was gaming related.

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I was on a forum and it's about the. The new. There's a new Zelda game. I know that for whatever weird reason we don't have gamers listen to the show, but there's a new Zelda game that's coming. It's a re. I say new. It's a remake of Ocarina of Time. Ocarina of Time is arguably the first in the timeline that created the different, you know, adult Link, child Link, etc fallen different branches of the Zelda timeline. So it's. It's a significant game. Now I thought the game was crap back then, but I'm willing to give it another shot. Link obviously looks creepy, but I'm willing to give it a shot. In any event, on this post they have a comments box and the person was saying just pick a side date.

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Because everybody this it relates to Crypto. But everybody seems like they have to be told they want just you make an opinion and then I'll follow your opinion. Why? Why can't you just think for yourself? Because what they had done, they said, link, it looks like a creepy MF or Yes, he does. It's kind of ugly. Yes, it is. It looks like. Looks like AI slop. Yes, it does. There's all these negatives but they said but the world looks good, some of the chic looks good and some of the other characters look good. So we're just, we're on the fence. We don't have A or B, but we are observing. Some stuff looks good, some stuff looks like crap. But we get these people who comment and they just want everybody to pick a side. I had the same thing happen. I was on Steam, which is PC gaming. I was on Steam and they were just like, just pick a side. Just pick a side. Just pick a side. They just want somebody to tell them in Crypto we. This takes the shape of influencers, right? And they want the influencers to tell them, tell me Should I buy it? Should I buy it? Why? Literally ask yourself why you're that way. If you're that way, why are you that way? Why? I can tell you why. It's because you want somebody else to blame. You want somebody else to point the finger and say they, hey, you told me, you told me to buy that.

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That's why. Many of the smart ones don't do that. Many of the smart ones don't tell you to buy.

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I would argue many of the smart ones don't even talk about garbage projects. But that's a different. That's here nor there.

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The point here is that a lot of the YouTubers were telling people a lot of different things that are no longer true. And many of them have lost that mojo that convinced some of you that rhymes to follow and listen to them religiously as if they were some sort of deity. I'm not even going to call out names. It doesn't matter. I think everybody understands the list, a very finite list of specific influencers I'm targeting. You know what I'm talking about. Certain of them who told you to get into certain projects, telling you that it was going to go up to something, and maybe it did, but then they dumped out of it before you had a chance to sell. Or maybe it's just some garbage, garbage off some movie garbage off some gang garbage off something that had no fundamentals in anything whatsoever. And then they told you to get into it because you follow them and you trust and you're looking for the next gamble, right? That's really what it was.

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That was the era that we were living in. Every single. All these people were just following influencers. Listen to what they said. And then the influencers would tell them, even if they weren't directly doing so, they would tell them about a certain project, they would tell them to get into it, and then those people would just follow what the influencer said because they're looking for somebody else to tell them what to do instead of thinking for themselves. Because they don't want to own the accountability.

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It's important that you own the accountability, because if you don't, nothing's going to get any better in the crypto space for sure.

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And that's the reason why some people keep squawking and screaming for regs and lockdowns and all that. Consider something else.

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The very origins of cryptocurrency were around the idea that the ledger itself is public. However, the wallet is inherently private. Right?

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Private keys. The idea that the wallet address is obfuscated look it up from who you are, that's part of its benefit. But that the ledger, the transactions themselves are public with no necessarily intention behind the transactions there's a transaction, money moved from A to B. We don't necessarily know why. And you, in theory, you wouldn't care. Well, the government cares. The government wants to understand what you're doing with money. Why? Because they want to tax you on that. They want to get their share, what they think is their share. Because if you go the crypto route, you're essentially hiding money. They're going to assume you're a criminal. They're going to assume you're trying to duck taxes. That's why they ask you to report on the tax deal, knowing that they could track it down if they wanted to. Because it all goes back to your bank. Right at your bank there's reporting that goes from the bank to the irs. So they understand when you're transacting this way, which is the reason certain influencers choose to be in Dubai, because it insulates them and shields them from some of this reporting that I'm describing.

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Why does this matter? It matters because when we try to understand the Clarity act, when we try to understand the Genesis act, when we try to understand crypto regulation, when we try to understand what the government really does or does not want, when we try to understand what the banking industry does or does not want, when we try to understand what Finn send for crimes, what they do or don't want, when we try to understand the Federal Reserve, you have to all it all circles around the fact that they need in the way that the laws were written.

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They had to have a finger on the pulse of exactly how much money you do and don't have and what you're doing with it, all of that had to be tracked. They don't care when it's smallish amounts, but they certainly do care how much money is in your bank. They do care that you're sending them a portion of your money all the time. Which is why when you're a W2 employee, they require you to pre preemptively send them the money and then beg for some of it back and justify why you should get it back using credits and deductions and things they already know you qualify for. But they force you to go through the rigor and fill up the paperwork because they damn sure not going to directly give you that money back. The whole system is broken. Because what. And what does that do for them? Just you might be morbid, but what does that do for them? You filing and asking for that money back is how they know you're still alive. That's really all it is. That's the bottom line of what it is. Even though if you're a W2 and you're doing W2 reporting to the government, they already know that's got to be an active employee, because that's all based on time tracking for everybody.

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There's no logical reason why you should have to then justify and beg for money back. It should be that you pay based on the money that you're documented as owing. And it has to be reasonable. It's got to be fair, and it's got to be reasonable. That's the other broken part of the whole system. I'll tell you a story about mine.

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I pay to the government every month. Every single month, money goes out and I pay enough per month. Some people would cringe, but that's because I make a decent amount of money because I own a business, right?

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It's been paying every month. I'd never missed a payment ever, whatsoever. I even told them to increase it. They ignored my request. You're like, I'm telling you they're broken. I get a letter in the mail and it says, hey, you didn't pay this, you know, this $2,000 because of whatever they were like, what are you talking about? There's a payment plan because what happens is they want you to do things in a very specific sequence, but then they don't require it in the way you set it up. So if you set up a payment plan, and let's say they want to charge you some sort of penalty or fee or whatever, they want you to pay that first and then do the installment plan, which is stupid. Just do the installment plan. Tackle that on the end of it. They're charging you interest on it anyway. Do you know why they do it the other way? I know the game. They do it the other way because I pay so much every month. There is. They're not really getting interest out of me because I pay so much every month. Because it's better. It's a better process. They're guaranteed to get money every month because they know they could put a lien on me if I don't pay.

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That's the only incentive they should need. It's better for them to have the monthly payments. What they want me to do is make estimated quarterly payments. Well, estimate of what estimate based on the money I make. But there's deductions. The things are changing. The Biden administration changed the stuff and then Trump came in and changed the stuff and you can't properly estimate it. So then you get into this cycle where you got to beg for the money back based on something you can't predict and you can't forecast. So it's better to just do a fixed monthly payout. They're guaranteed to get money every single month. If you think of every single person that has to pay taxes, because not everybody does, but every single person has to pay taxes. If every single person that had to pay taxes were simply committed to a monthly just, it's a monthly fixed thing for as much as you make income. If you make income, you just make monthly payments to it. The government would be better off. They'd be way better off. They don't have to steal the money up front from your employer and then have you go through the process of getting and begging it back, filling out tax forms and doing the tax filing. Some people have to file physical because of what it is. It's a nightmare. They want that overhead. That's how they justify their jobs. If they do it my way, you don't need as many people because you just simply establish if you get money, you pay per month. That simple.

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So I pay per month because it's more efficient. Yet they still have this nonsense because I purposely said just take the money every month. I don't care what that is. But because I didn't purposely do a one time payment of this one thing over here two years ago. I'm sorry, three years ago. Because it was three years ago. I'm pretty sure it was.

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All of a sudden they're squawking three years later after the fact, say hey, you owe this thing, we'll cancel your installment payment. So they would rather not collect further money from me because I didn't pay this 2000 upfront, despite the fact that I've paid them tens of thousands of dollars. Do you see what I'm saying when I say they don't know what they're doing? That's why I have such a personal grievance. Look it up against the tax system in the country and the fact that they're trying to go after cryptocurrency because they don't even know how to do it right with the fiat side because they're inefficient with the fiat side. I'm not inclined to buy into the narrative that they should just take from the crypto side too.

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The government doesn't agree with me. The government would rather Stay as inefficient as possible with nobody fixing the underlying. There was a senator listening to the show. I don't know if that person still does, but if you do, somebody needs to get the IRS intact because they're jacked up, they're screwed up, their process is broken. Mine is better. If anybody wants to hear that smoke. And I'm happy to explain how simple it could be. Crypto talk. Am at the contact form.

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But our IRS is screwed up and it offends me as a tax paying citizen. It's the reason why so many people don't want to give up the crypto and why they're ducking taxes. Many of them used tools like Tornado Cash. Speaking of Tornado cash, the Department of Justice is pushing to file charges against one of the people who founded Tornado Cash. Why?

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There actually was some precedent in the past that said fundamentally writing code, just writing code without intent is not a crime, it's not criminal behavior. You have to prove intent. All of these things that we're talking in crypto, all these things that we're dealing with, criminal behaviors. The criminal behavior is proven by the intent to do something. However, sometimes you have these other people like the Chris Delgado where they had all the best intentions but they're still committing a crime.

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It's important that you understand the way that our systems work. The way our systems work, don't. They don't necessarily care about intent. They'll write in that no intent has to be proven. And then over here on this other side, intent doesn't have to be proven. They just say that it's a crime. Well this guy, he says I'm, all I did was write code. And you're trying to lock me up for writing code because that's all I did. There's no intent to do anything. The government's saying you're trying to hide those, that those assets. You're trying to hide these criminal. And he's saying I have no idea what people are using it for. It goes back to the napsters of the world.

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It goes back to the old days of peer to peer. If you're too young to understand that era, do some research. But the peer to peer era was the very same thing people were before the era of digital music. People were ripping CDs. They were taking music off CDs. Sometimes they were recording it from the radio, sometimes they were recording from tape create these songs. They were trading it in peer to peer, which was the predecessor to what we now know, a blockchain.

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But in peer to peer. They were trading it to people free, so people weren't paying for music. And they said the music industry would die. Now, mind you, when the music industry adopted digital music the first time around, they had all sorts of DRM around it. It was restricted in what it could do, only playing on certain devices. They put all these hoops and things in front of it. It wasn't till they opened it up full scope and said, look, you could just buy the digital music and just put it out there. All of a sudden, the music, the business skyrocketed and you started seeing. With the rise of more Internet and self promotion, you started seeing a lot of artists be able to promote themselves and cut out the middleman with respect to rights and publishing to where they could own their own tracks, they could distribute to the public. Snoop Dogg did some of this.

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It was a different era, but it actually improved the music industry. Now, the downside of what happened there is that music became homogenized and generic and we no longer had those standouts. You don't have these George Michael types of artists out there anymore. You don't have the true standouts. You had the Bruno Mars is. Sure you have Maya. Sure you have. You know, what's the guy's name? I forget his name now. Kendrick Lamar. You got some of those, but they're not on the level of like a George Michael, an Aretha Franklin, you know, a Pavarotti. You don't have those standout marquee artists. They don't exist anymore like they used to. And part of that is because music itself has gone and they've catered to the current tastes. And because it's easy to get and it's inexpensive, Nobody is really.

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Like, in my days, we would have blockbuster music. We would have Suncoast. We'd go to the Music tower Records. We go to the music store, and we had to buy the whole album. When singles came out, we still had to buy the disc. It's five songs, but we're spending a fair amount of money. We didn't have where you just buy one song for a dollar.

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Such a thing was unthinkable. You were spending at least $4 to get the music that you wanted. And in most cases, you're buying a whole cd. Usually it was on, like, a soundtrack where you heard songs that you wanted.

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We had to spend more money to invest in music, which for us, I would argue, gave us a greater appreciation of the music. However, I still acknowledge that the separation from peer to peer, getting it to where it's digital getting us to our fully traded.

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I think it spiked the industry. I think it helped the industry in a major way and it helped the artists kind of get separated. Ties back to Tornado Cash because the argument around it was we've always said to going back to what I said at the beginning, cryptocurrency was it's supposed to be a public ledger of transactions. At no point was it ever promised that you'd know who the person was that did the transaction or that you know what the transaction was. That was never guaranteed in it. The government wanted to impose that standard into what's happening with the blockchain. Now that it's public, let's tie in what they're doing with it and who's doing what, where's it going, who, what country is going to and from because they're trying to allegedly try to find illegal activities.

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Tornado Cash. And if you don't know what it is, it's called a mixer and it obfuscates, look it up your transactions such that they're not clear and apparent, you lose the trail. You can't follow the money from end to end when you use the mixers. And Tornado Cash is just the most popular mixer. It's not the only one. Well the government in one press said writing code is not breaking a law. We have to prove intent. When it comes to Tornado Cash is a different situation. They're saying because you wrote something that is the only reason that you would have something like this is for criminal activities. We're going to go out to you because you wrote the damn thing just like the guy on Napster. It's the same situation. He's fighting the case because he's saying I just wrote code over there. You said it's fine to write code but now you're accusing me of something where I had no intent. I wasn't intending to do anything and I can't control how they use the stuff.

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Kim.com the guy, Omega Cloud or Mega Upload, same thing, same deal. He just. Right. He just put something out there. It was used for at the time what they said was illegal file sharing. So illegal movies and music and all these things.

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They went after him. They raided him out in New Zealand. They raided his place. The footage is still out there. They raided his place. They had him locked up. They tried to extradite him. I think they successfully extradited him at a point and then it got tossed.

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But his whole life was turned upside down because the government they cherry picked when they're Going to enforce laws. And when they're going to say, oh, this over here is the case. The precedent that said that writing code is not illegal has been there for years. But they change it conditional to what they think is the use case. So when this guy is getting attacked for having written tornado cash, well, think of what that means for you.

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What does it tell you about what the government's intent is? The government's intent is to connect the dots between the people and, and the allegedly the intent and the reason behind things happen because they're assuming a crime, they're assuming criminal behavior. It's called guilty until proven innocent. That's essentially what it is. It's enshrined in, you're not in the United States. It's enshrined in US law, innocent until proven guilty. But in practice, that's not what happens. In practice, it's guilty until proven innocent. Because that's how our system works. They don't assume that you're innocent. They assume that you're innocent. They wouldn't lock you up when there's allegations of a crime, if they assume that you were innocent, they wouldn't come to your job and harass you if there's allegations of a crime. The guy, the, the guy, this was Fortnite. Fortnite. Now this guy's a freaking numb nuts. But the point is fortnight this guy and he had a criminal record before, but he's on the video, he's on the audio. And I thought it was a kid, I thought it was like a, some 20 year old, he's like 50 something years old.

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He's on there and he's threatening and he says something to the effect of. Yet the FBI shows up, I'll shoot them.

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Something like this, the, the whoever's behind Fortnite, they get the audio. I think it's epic. They get the audio, they send it to the FBI as a report. Hey, this could be a.

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And then the FBI arrests this guy. Now he deserved to get arrested. The point is though, he's guilty until proven innocent. He's talking, we know he ain't got the balls to do what he says he's going to do. Because all that they didn't need to arrest the dude. All they had to do is just show up at the motherfucker's house and say, FBI, what was that about? You going to shoot a motherfucker? Try it, please. That's all you got to do. And this dude's getting down on his knees. That rhymes. I guarantee you he'll be down on his knees offering to suck something off just to have them. He'll back down, but they arrest him anyway because he's guilty until proven innocent. Same things happen with tornado cash. They're doing it because they're assuming everybody who uses it is committing a crime. They're all, if you're using this, you're trying to hide criminal behaviors.

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So be careful out there. You may never use the mixer.

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You may never have even thought of using a mixer. And that's perfectly fine. Just consider the bigger picture of what this type of attack means. It means they want to know every single thing that you do and why you do it and where you do it.

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They don't want you to have your own privacy around your transactions. You enjoy some of that with your fiat today. Now, I say that that's if you are one of those people like myself who embraces cash. If you're one of those who likes to swipe your card or put your phone on the thing or whatever, you're just being traced end to end and you don't care. I've had young people say they don't care. You'll care when I'm long off the earth, you will care. But for right now, if you're one of those who's cash, you understand they mostly don't care. And they don't know if you're doing basic transactions. If it's cash, I'm talking cash in hand, they assume it's an up and up transaction. Because they assume. You know, if you go in the bank and you ask for like $3,000, yeah, they're going to kind of side eye you. And as long as you have a good relationship with the bank and you explain what it is that you're doing and you're not getting ripped off because it could be that you're getting scammed. As long as you explain it and you tell them here's what it is and it's not egregious. Like if you're trying to pull out $9,000, then yeah, you're gonna raise some red flags beyond that, if you're a cash person, regular transactions, 500 bucks here, $1,000 there, they leave you alone. The digital world, everything digital world, they want to trace it end to end and understand what you're doing so they can control what you can do because they think that they're not going to get their fair share out of it. That's our future. That's where we're going to be headed if we're not careful in the long run.

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I said at the jump, this is my close.

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I said at the jump I would talk about influences a little bit. I'm not going to go deep into it. Just a quick mention here.

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I was stumbling across a couple of influencers who were talking about various projects and then I saw comments on their videos of people pissed off because some of these projects that they had talked about in the past, we're talking in the past, so they might have talked about two years ago, long since crapped out, no hope for it. It was a piece of garbage anyway. The influencer hadn't even talked about it for like a year and a half.

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Commenters come back and they're like, you talked about this and it rug pulled. I want to know what you think about that because many people are relying on the YouTubers to guide them on what to purchase into my messaging to you and obviously listening to my show. You understand I'm not telling you to buy into any project. That's why. Because I don't want to own that.

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I'll tell you straight up, looks like it's doing what they told me. But this, this, that and the other thing that's all about do, that's all I about do.

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If you're one of those where you listen to a YouTuber and they told you to do something, you did it because they told you they did it because they were talking about it. Whatever you did and you're at a point where something happened with the project, you're pissed off about the YouTuber. I'm going to challenge you to look at yourself first because you should not listen to a YouTuber telling you to get into a project. You should listen to your own brain and look at common sense.

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Any project that has an emu on the end of it is probably crap. And yes, I'm including Shib, AKA Shiba Inu in that I saw it crapped out.

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I'm. I'm including a lot of these. I'm even including worldcoin, which if anybody's listening to me for a long period of time. When World Coin first dropped, I said to people, worldcorn is pumping dumb. World coin spiked $10. Look at the price right now. Pump and dump. All you gotta do is come back, get my credit because it was obvious that that's what it was. So some say it's going to recover. Maybe it does. But right now it's pump and dump and you can't know. But when you're talking, scanning somebody's eyeball it should tell you this is not going to be sustainable. First of all, there's only so much people in the world. Second, it's only in certain countries. Third, it's a privacy breach of the nth proportions.

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It's a gimmick. So it's obviously going to pump and dump. It's only appealing to those nerds who think that's a cool thing. It's not really. It's not sustainable. It doesn't solve a real business problem. It does not. They say it does. In terms of identity verification, it doesn't really, because just the fact that I scanned your eyeball does not verify any sort of identity to a strong degree, any different than if I'm physically showing up to somebody in front of.

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My point is that you have to own what is it really that this does. And then after they launch a product, I'm talking a real product and it's worldwide and it's outside the bubble, then you sit back and assess what's doing. Then you wait for the dust to settle, as in get past the pump period.

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Wait till gets back down, watch its movement, see if it gets any strength in it. This of course means that you're missing the key point of a pre sale, which is the lowest possible price before it spikes.

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You might be a gambler where you say, I'm just going to roll that, man. Great.

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I'm. I am putting a call to action. I recommend you don't do that because I am getting kind of sick of seeing so many people just following a YouTuber telling them to get into this thing. It's going to launch here in a couple of weeks and it's gonna easily 10x or go 100. I'm getting sick of people falling for that business. And then they come back frustrated because the thing crapped.

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If more people were studious about it, I wouldn't say anything.

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Long hopes like long. I mean, it's just, it's 2021, 2022. People have never moved on. I get it.

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Summary.

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What you do with your cast is what you do.

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My channel exists because I don't want to see people get ripped.

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Whether they listen to me or not, it's a different conversation. Some people just don't listen. We've seen that time and again. We saw that with Block Deck. People didn't listen and they got ripped or they listened to the wrong people. I should be clear, they listened to wrong people who misled them. There's nothing I can do about it unless people listen to me. Spread the word you gotta listen to this dude. He's telling straight up truth. He's.

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I can only do. I'm only one person, right? You gotta spread the word to help other people and realize some may not listen. They're in their bubble. They're going to be staying in that bubble and that's it is what it is. There's nothing we can do to help those people any further than we already have tried, Sam.